Talk:Michelle Yeoh

"First person of Asian descent"

Currently this page is being changed back and forth on either Yeoh is the first actress of Asian decent to win the Academy Award for Best Actress. Multiple articles have reported as such, including the BBC and NBC. However, if we look at the Wikipedia page for all Asian winners of Academy Awards, we can see that she is not the first actress Asian decent to win said award, but she is the first person of Southeast Asian descent. Can we discuss it here so that we can have a consensus that allows this back and forth to stop? List of Asian Academy Award winners and nominees OneRandomBrit (talk) 13:31, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

The intro claims she's the first actress of Asian ancestry to win Best Actress. Wouldn't that be Cher, with an Armenian father? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C5E:700E:300:EC61:F0D3:175F:A72 (talk) 13:51, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

See article at Asian people specifically § United States. Article is using the common convention of Americans and American press as to what they consider "Asian". Basically it is a US census driven racial classification that has replaced the deprecated "Oriential" and "Yellow" races. It has little to do with being from the Asian continent as the plain meaning of the term would otherwise indicate. How the rest of the world outside the US defines the term is also in the article and it does differ from the American definition.

Since this article is not about an American person we should generally avoid American jargon or make it clear that it is American jargon. Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:21, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

On that note, I would say that Yeoh isn't the first person of Asian descent to win the award - she is the first southeast Asian person. The internet is quite America-centric, but in the case of this we could also say that she is the first Chinese/Malaysian person to win the award. OneRandomBrit (talk) 17:42, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Although I will say that the current rendition of how it is phrased is definitely the best I've seen in the last 24 hours. OneRandomBrit (talk) 17:43, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

The references that are in the article supporting "first Asian" are American outlets using American word definitions. Enwiki in general is US centric and prevalence of US references is one reason for it. Along with this, is that it is an award from an American organization so she is the "first Asian" from their perspective. Other award winners from Asia are not considered "Asian" by Americans. Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:51, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Geraldo Perez and @OneRandomBrit - I've found two articles from the Hollywood Reporter, which note several past winners like Vivien Leigh, Cher, Salma Hayek and Natalie Portman who have origins to Western Asia (or in the case of Leigh, she was born in South Asia) but in the grand scheme of things, are not considered or recognized as being "Asian", at least from American standards (because the Academy Awards and Hollywood Reporter are U.S-based things).[1][2] It is quite nebulous though and I support keeping the note for clarity. On a tangent, Angelina Jolie won a Supporting Oscar (I know this is about Yeoh's Best Actress win) and has obtained Cambodian citizenship but I do understand that ultimately, sources will talk of the U.S definition of "Asian" as this is the Academy Awards.

"Past winners Vivien Leigh, Cher and Natalie Portman have ties to Western Asian heritage, but none considered or considers themselves to be Asian."

"Likewise for double Oscar winner Vivien Leigh, who was born in British-colonized India and whose mother might have had partial Western Asian ancestry. And although past nominee Salma Hayek and winners Cher and Natalie Portman all have claims to some Western Asian heritage (Lebanon, Armenia and Israel/Russia, respectively), none has identified as Asian."

Others consider Yeoh to be the first "full Asian" or "full Asian-presenting", because of Merle Oberon to be the "first Asian actress nominated", albeit she was of mixed Indian/Anglo and other ancestry, born in colonial India but denied her Asian heritage.[3]

Should we put the Hollywood Reporter source into Yeoh's article to further explain the context of "Asian" in her case? Clear Looking Glass (talk) 08:28, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Might add it to the explanatory note. I think it too much to add for the lead. What Asian means to Americans and Yeoh herself, basically, is people who look like her. Since the others could pass as "white", they don't count. Geraldo Perez (talk) 08:48, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

I see, thanks for your input. And yeah, it does seem that East/Southeast Asians are the "default" Asian to Americans. South Asians and West Asians are often debated, and you even have the often combined Asian American/Pacific Islander term. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 08:55, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Geraldo Perez - I know this is four months late, but I've added the sources discussed here which note the several other Asian actresses who won but aren't considered "Asian" in America. I've also clarified the note stating that common usage of "Asian" in America is synonymous with people of East Asian descent, as technically speaking, South Asians are considered "Asian" in an American context, yet several actresses of South Asian origins aren't widely considered the "first Asian". And it's clear which "Asian" is meant by the sources, especially in the Hollywood Reporter source which states that several non-East Asian descent actresses were not considered "Asian" or widely identified as such.

Although I understand this is an American context, it's quite odd that a highly diverse continent like Asia is largely reduced to only people who resemble ethnic East Asians, especially in common American vernacular. And technically, it's not like some Asians are aren't "white", "black", or so on. But American history now considers terms like "Yellow [Asiatic]" or "Mongoloid" problematic/racist. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 06:32, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this section addresses the issue obliquely. It is not Asian "descent", which would include Gal Gadot (descended from Israeli sabra) and Omar Sharif (descended from Lebanese Christians). The issue is WP:Globalize regarding the use of "Asian" to refer to a race, which is a colloquial Americanism ironically NOT recognized in Asia itself. As I noted in my edit a few minutes ago, her native Malaysia explicitly has a bumiputera policy that provides affirmative action favoring the majority Malays for government posts (inc universities) over the minority Chinese. That policy is very clear evidence that Malaysia itself does not view "Asian" as a unified race. See also the first paragraph of ASEAN#Education which cites the organization's own web site as using the term "ASEAN citizen" which might be a good compromise here. Martindo (talk) 09:09, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Read the previous discussion. We are going with what the references we have classify her as and the notes explain how American usage and American sources drive the descriptions. It has nothing to do with official racial classifications but what she is call in the reliable sources we have that do have an American point of view. The "firsts" are from an American perspective. Also there is no reference that states "becoming the first Southeast Asian person", references state "first Asian" without qualification. Geraldo Perez (talk) 20:58, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

There is a tendency to "put firsts first" when determining notability, leading to some exaggeration (e.g., first in ALL of ASIA). I think you should read WP:Globalize which redirects to the Systemic Bias page, which in turn expresses concern about Cultural Imperialism (e.g., US usage) directed towards the Global South.

I also recommend reading Crazy_Rich_Asians_(film)#Casting_criticism which shows the complexity of ethnicity in Southeast Asia (specifically Singapore, where that story is set). Many actors with varying ethnicity were dismayed that the casting director(s) dissuaded them from auditioning even though the director had declared open auditions.

The muddled "note a" in the text is evidence that this issue is not crystal clear. I don't see the urgency to revert back to that note without a discussion involving more than one person. This thread within Talk certainly doesn't seem conclusive to me.

Hollywood Reporter is not WP:RS in regard to identity issues. My guess is that US media have gotten lazy and now use the shorter "Asian" to refer to "Asian-American" (a conflated term that leads to perceptual blindness similar to what it is trying to correct). Then they realized Yeoh isn't a US citizen, so they had to affirm "Asian" without addressing geography or ethnicity. Martindo (talk) 21:01, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Hollywood Reporter is a WP:RS in general and their reporting is accurate. This isn't an identity issue, it is a word definition issue based on how words are used in the US. Different countries use the word "Asian" in different ways. This is covered in the footnote and the reason the footnote is there is to make it clear that it is an American jargon term. The footnote is necessary due to globalization issues. When Americans and Yeoh herself use the word Asian it means people who look like Yeoh, has nothing actually to do with a physical location, it is a race term. It does not mean people from SE Asia in general and it is not a synonym for SE Asia. The first that is defined and sourced is "first Asian". Anything added to the article replace that is unsourced. Geraldo Perez (talk) 21:14, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

"people who look like Yeoh"? OMG. You're descending into "they all look alike" racism now, or at best perceptual blindness. I really think you should read Crazy_Rich_Asians_(film)#Casting_criticism which describes in detail the whole issue of "who looks right for the part" -- with criticism by several ethnic "Asians" who are prominent in Hollywood. I don't see why wikipedia should reinforce that kind of sloppy usage, which verges on microaggression toward lesser-known ethnicities. Martindo (talk) 21:21, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Maybe Yeoh should read those references, she herself talked about people who looked like her and what it means to her. She has bought into the American usage of "Asian" being a racial classification term and that is how it is used by the American sources. I have no interest in applying original research to this article. Report what the reference explicitly state with no interpretation. This one word "Asian" was used in reporting her win by multiple sources. The word has conflicting meanings to different people as covered in this discussion. We reached a compromise to keep true to sourcing but also explain what the word means to non-American readers by adding an explanatory footnote. Maybe the footnote could be cleaned up, but the article itself is accurately reporting what American references about an American award say about her winning that award. The article mentioned in the footnote, Asian people § United States, explains it fairly well. Geraldo Perez (talk) 21:34, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware she said that in her Oscar dedication, in the heat of excitement. In her case, the over-generalization is unintentional subjectivity: not seeing beyond her own viewpoint as a Malaysian Chinese woman, who definitely does NOT "look like" Asian people from India or even the majority from her native country. Wikipedia shouldn't reinforce that kind of microaggression by *intentionally* using the term. So-called reliable sources make mistakes all the time and we're not robots who must repeat inaccurate terminology. Every WP page has interpretation, not merely a string of direct quotations. Anyway, it seems that Straits Times of Singapore and New Straits Times of Malaysia also prefer the grandiose term, so I'm not going to fight the inaccuracy anymore. Too bad WP isn't really serious about WP:Globalize. Martindo (talk) 23:46, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Hear hear! I read that footnote with some incredulity. "It doesn't matter what the facts are: to us Americans, only our perceptions matter." The footnote needs to go, or be heavily amended. And the article should reflect the truth, even if that's to say "Yeoh was erroneously described as the first Asian to..." Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:07, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

The meaning of the word "Asian" has different meanings in different locations. That is explained in the footnote. Americans and American derived sources talking about an American award are using the American meaning of the word. It is not "erroneously described as ..." when using American English definitions of the word "Asian". That would be a false statement not supported by sourcing. The footnote is necessary to explain this to non-American readers who basically speak another version of English. Geraldo Perez (talk) 15:23, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

The meaning of the word "Asian" is "a person from Asia." Full stop. Asia stretches from the eastern Mediterranean to the Bering Strait, and from the Anzhu islands to Indonesia. It is not limited to "south-east Asia." Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:59, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

That meaning is not common in American English in the context of referring to people. Also in British English but British English means a different part of Asia when they say "Asian". Asian does not have a common definition no matter how much you assert that your definition is the correct one. See the footnote you dislike for a more complete explanation of this. That is why the footnote is there, as a compromise solutions to stop the continued back and forth edit warring on this article about the definition of one word. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:20, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Words mean what you say they mean? How Orwellian! "We have always been at war with eastasia!" Someone from Israel or Palestine or Armenia is Asian. Someone from Pakistan or Nepal is Asian. Someone from Siberia or Mongolia is Asian. Someone from Iran, South Korea or Taiwan is Asian. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 16:38, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Getting over the huge irony in GP's position, and remembering that WP is an international encyclopedia, not an American one... it may be more accurate to describe Yeoh as Mashable does: "...the first Best Actress winner to have embraced her Asian heritage openly." Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 16:47, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

This particular word does not have a universal international meaning when referring to people. "International" does not mean "non-American", it includes the US and American readers have to be accommodated too as part of the international readership of enwiki. My position is I don't want to edit war this topic and everything stated here is nothing new and has been rehashed multiple times before mostly with edits and reverts to the article before the footnote was added and a strict adherence to what the sources state was kept in the article. Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:10, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Nobody wants an edit war; this is why we're discussing things here. However, we also want an accurate encyclopedia. Yeoh is not the first Asian to have won Best Actress; Asian means someone from Asia. Universally. Even if you can show me a dictionary definition stating "Asian: Person from Asia. Person from South-East Asia (US meaning only)" that would not give precedence to the alleged US interpretation of a word. So far, we only have your assertion that this is the case, anyway. The argument is ridiculous in the extreme! Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:48, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

That is the nature of a compromise - nobody is fully happy with it. The compromise did solve the edit war issue though so serves its purpose. We go with sourcing per WP:V, not all of them American either (Yeoh's statements follow American usage too), and explain that it is, and why it is, American common usage in the footnote so people who think American usage is "ridiculous" have their issue covered in the article. Suggest as background you actually read the contents of the footnote and the articles linked in it. American usage is reflected in American law driven by demands of American "Asian" activists so it is a bit more than just a matter of how language evolves in different locations. Geraldo Perez (talk) 15:41, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Which School?

Any information on which 'private girl's boarding school' she attended in the UK? None of the following schools list her as alumnus. Badminton. Roedean. Benenden. Godolphin & Latymer. Information appears to be non-existent. 109.154.200.111 (talk) 20:11, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

From the looks of it, perhaps it's the Royal Ballet School, but it's a bit unclear, I agree. Continuing to look into it. "she trained from the age of four to be a dancer, until, aged 18, studying at the Royal Ballet School in London, a crippling fall ended her dance career" Cerebral726 (talk) 20:47, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Which University/Higher Education did Yeoh actually attend and when?

It says in this article that Yeoh both attended and graduated from the Royal Academy of Dance in 1982 with a Bachelor of Arts degree in Creative Arts and a Minor in Drama, however Manchester Metropolitan University considers her an alumni and says she graduated in 1983 with that same degree? Manchester Metropolitan University didn't exist in 1983, however there's photographic evidence to suggest she attended Crewe and Alsager College in the 1982-1983 academic year, which was one of the colleges that later formed Manchester Metropolitan.

The author of that article claims she did a Creative Arts and specialised in Dance in her final year (aligning with the degree she's claimed to have gotten from the Royal Academy of Dance - but also suggesting she was there multiple years?) and received a 2:1, however if she did complete a degree at Crewe and Alsager then would completely contradict the idea that she went to and graduated from the Royal Academy of Dance in London?

Michelle however does mention in an interview that she began studying Ballet at the Royal Academy of Dance in London, but had to stop because she suffered a back/spinal injury. She then mentions "Another door opened where I was still very much in the world that I wanted to be" (suggesting she she definitely transferred to do something different like this article claims), and another interview claims that she 'stayed on at the Royal Academy, studying choreography instead, and graduated in 1982 with a BA in creative arts with a minor in drama.', but that would again contradict the idea that she graduated in 1983 from Crewe and Alsager College?

TL;DR, I'm finding it hard to create an actual accurate timeline of Yeoh's education. I'm speculating that she did begin her higher education at the Royal Academy of Dance in London in 1980 studying ballet, but then at some point moved to Crewe and Alsager College (possibly in 1982, as the photographic evidence only suggests she was at Crewe from 1982-1983), where she transferred her Ballet degree to a degree in Creative Arts, completing her final year and graduating from there in 1983 at 21 (which is the expected age to graduate if she started higher educated at 18, which is typical for the UK).

This would mean that she left the Royal Academy of Dance in 1982 (which aligns with the idea that she "graduated" in 1982 that some claim), and still would have been able to get her Bachelor of Arts degree in Creative Arts and Drama degree in 1983 from Crewe and Alsager College. As this college later became Manchester Metropolitan University, it would then also support the (admittedly slightly far-fetched) claim that she graduated from Manchester Met.

Any thoughts? Am I missing some key information here? Frogsarehere (talk) 14:50, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

First Malaysian to win an Academy Award

@Geraldo Perez: You just re-added sources to "first Malaysian to win an Academy Award" in the lead. This is already well sourced in the "Award success (2021–present)", or if you feel it's not, the sources belong there, not in the lead. GA-RT-22 (talk) 23:39, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

OK. I missed that. Geraldo Perez (talk) 00:15, 18 February 2024 (UTC)